'Can You Stay Curious a Little Bit Longer?'

The Rhodes Scholars came formally dressed: Navy-blue suits, ties, sweaters and turtlenecks.

But Michael Bungay Stanier wore slightly different attire.

“I had totally misunderstood what was required," he said, laughing in hindsight. "I showed up in my home-made ratty clothes, big hair and a peace symbol around my neck.”

For decades, Bungay Stanier has been doing things a bit unconventionally — whether with his clothing, his core leadership philosophies or self-publishing his acclaimed book "The Coaching Habit," which has sold more than 1 million copies.

"You have to bet on yourself and how you're different to make it work," he said.

The Daily Coach spoke to Bungay Stanier recently about why it's so critical to take risks, the "fierce love" element of coaching, and resisting the temptation to give advice.

This interview has been condensed and edited for clarity. It was conducted as part of a sponsored promotion for "The Coaching Habit."

Michael, thank you for doing this. Tell us a little about your childhood and how it shaped some of your leadership philosophies.

I grew up in a pretty happy family in Australia. I lived in Canberra, the capital city, until I was 25.

One of the things that was really powerful for me as a kid was having supportive parents. I wasn’t the kid they were expecting. They were both retiring, a little less self-confident than I turned out to be. As they’ve told the story, “We spent the first 20 years of Michael’s life waiting for him to finally land in a pile of s---, but he spent a lot of time going ‘Tada!’ and bouncing back.”

I sign off my emails now with, “You’re awesome, and you’re doing great.” I think that’s a mantra for my life, which is having a good sense of self-belief, and even when things are going badly, I’m probably doing the best I can. You can’t always control the circumstances or how things play out. You can only commit to the process.

You were named a Rhodes Scholar in the 1990s, which is obviously an incredibly prestigious honor. What did you learn through that process?

The key lesson is persistence. The Rhodes Scholarship is a big deal in some places, but the first time I applied, I didn’t even get into the first round. Apparently, my application was so underwhelming. It was a bit demoralizing. I took a year out and licked my wounds and came back and had a better shot at it.

The other thing that really helped is when I was applying, it was a short list of 10 people, and they’re all really impressive. I just realized there was no way I could compete on the same grounds. They were all smarter than I was and had more academic clout than I had.

I had to bet on myself being different. Everybody showed up in blue suits and white shirts and red ties, business dress of the early 1990s. I was wearing a tie-dyed, pink tie, I had long blonde hair and earrings in. I thought I’m either going to come in a distant last or I’m going to come in first. That’s it. I don’t want to come in the middle. Betting on yourself and betting on how you’re different as a way of making it work.

Can you get into your definition of coaching, because it’s a bit unconventional?

I’ll start off by saying coaching actually comes with a fair amount of baggage attached to it. If you’re in the world of sports, it’s directive, whistle-blowing, shouting in the changing room and encouraging people. If you’re in life coaching, that’s got its own cliches around it as well, like people wearing kaftans and lighting incense. Executive coaching has its own baggage.

The way I define coaching is behavioral. Can you stay curious a little bit longer? Can you rush to action and advice-giving a little bit more slowly?

My mission is less to train coaches and more to (make a greater percentage) of the population more coach-like. Curiosity unlocks insight about the situation and yourself. Curiosity helps people feel seen, understood and encouraged. If you lead with curiosity, it’s a more powerful place to lead from most of the time.

Your TED Talk about advice giving has well over 1 million views. Why do you think so many of us rush to give advice and what do you believe is a better alternative?

I think there are two levels in which to answer that. One level is it’s just what’s been expected of you for so long. You go through school and university looking to be the person who has an answer. Your grades are based on how good your answers are. Then, when you start a career, you’re into, “Let me prove my expertise.” Expertise feels like knowledge, and advice, and solutions. There are a lot of ways the world rewards people with knowledge, advice, authority and opinions.

Then, there’s a deeper level around the fact that the amygdala loves certainty and clarity. It makes the brain feel safe. The brain’s No. 1 modus operandi is to keep the person alive. Then, the brain stays alive and your DNA continues to spread. There’s a way that biologically we love to give advice. The experience of telling people what to do feels good even if you’re solving the wrong problem with not very good advice.

Curiosity often feels less good because you’re empowering the other person, which means giving up some of your own power, and status, and authority and influence. When you ask a question, there’s also this moment of ambiguity of, “Was that a good question?” “Did they understand it?” “What if they have a stupid answer?”

In that TedX where I’m talking about the three advice monsters, what I’m doing is I’m making a metaphor over three psychological states that boil down to we love control, status and authority. When we’re giving advice, we feel we get that. The problem is that’s a short-term win and a long-term loss for the most part.

You have a list of seven key questions when it comes to coaching and getting unstuck. Are there a couple you believe are most relevant to ask?

I’ve been asked that a lot over the years. They all have their place, but I think “And what else?” is the best coaching question in the world. It does two things: It extends the period of curiosity, and it tames your advice monster. If you’re feeling desperate to go, “Let me tell you what to do,” you’re slowing down your own rush to action and advice giving.

(The first) question is “What’s your mind?” The last question is “What was most useful and most valuable?” The other one is “What’s the real challenge here for you?” It’s almost an identity element. It helps people figure out the real challenge rather than be the person who has the ideas. That’s actually a much rarer, more useful skill in most organizations.

Everyone has ideas, but ideas are cheap and easy. Knowing the real problem is rare and precious and strategic. If you’re in an organizational setting, if you want to be seen as different and valuable, be the person who’s going, “What’s the problem? What are we really trying to solve here?”

I want to ask you about a quote of yours. “Great coaching is fierce love.” Can you elaborate on that thought?

There’s a danger in coaching, particularly in life and executive coaching, where you’ve gone into it because you like being helpful. You can fall into a dysfunctional relationship where you think your job is to save the other person. Actually, what’s really powerful is to give people responsibility for their own freedom. There’s this paradoxical way of showing love.

What does it mean for me to be the greatest champion for this person, to be all in on their success, and growth, and focus? But the seduction of that is you kind of move into that rescuer mode. There’s a plague of niceness in the world of coaching. The fierceness is where you go, “So, I’m going to do all I can to help you be the best version of who you are.” What that means is being willing to not just encourage but to push, and to provoke, and to say the hard thing. Fierceness doesn’t mean being an a--hole.

“The Coaching Habit” has been a major success that’s resonated with many leaders across the world. Can you take us back to its origins and the lessons of your decision to self-publish?

I published a book with a New York publisher called “Do More Great Work.” It had decent success, not A-list, but B-list. I had this idea for a book, “The Coaching Habit.” I pitched it to them six or seven times. Each time, they’d go, “Not quite this. Have another go at writing and thinking about it.”

I wrote and re-wrote this seven times. They kept going, “It’s not quite right. We love you but not the book. Have another go at it.”

At a certain point, I’m like, “This is killing me.” I’m feeling really demoralized. I keep trying to tell them what the book is like, and they keep rejecting it. I was gutted and surprised because I thought they would bet on me as an author who had sold some books for them.

But it was a little like the Rhodes Scholar story. It’s probably not 100 percent personal. It’s just who they are and their business model. I decided to self-publish and found a really good editor, and a really good designer, and a really good partner. We originally self-published it, then we moved into what’s known as a hybrid-publishing model…

The book has gone on to sell 1.2 or 1.3 million copies which, first of all, financially was a huge difference. Thank you, Workman, for turning me down because that’s worked out to be really great.

One of the reasons I think it’s been successful is it un-weirds coaching for a lot of people. It takes away the woo-woo and the theory and shows some people here’s how to do it in a way they can look at it and go, “Oh, O.K., this is coaching. I can probably give that a shot.”

Don't miss out on a unique opportunity to witness Michael Bungay Stanier live in action:

1. Buy a PRINT copy of The Coaching Habit before midnight, Monday May 20th.

2. And Register HERE before midnight, Monday May 20th: TCHlive.com.

By registering, you'll secure your spot for an exclusive two-hour live webinar training session with Michael in June. Plus, you'll be entered for a chance to win a 1:1 coaching session with him. 

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